An open discussion.

Post by **grimdoomer** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:47 pm

Has Microsoft or Bungie had any reaction to this yet?

PlasmaGhost · Post by **PlasmaGhost** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:50 pm

Here's the way I see it. If Halomods doesn't allow it, I'm leaving to another forum such as some shitty site and only coming back to occasionally leech a few apps. If Halomods allows it, I'm staying.

Post by **grimdoomer** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:51 pm

One person isent gunna change anything, we already know no matter what desicion we make people will leave. Its common sense.

neodos · Post by **neodos** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:01 pm

I think that cheating on gamerscore with this con resigner sucks, but people that do it will get quickly banned, as XBL team did for some gamerscore cheaters before.
More things can be done like other's gamesaves modified,free movies etc but they'll always be noobs and good players who prefer to do the fair way, and many of those who want to cheat don't have enough patience to do it.

And as said microsoft will be banning the keyvaults, they will probably make updates even if it doesn't cover all the issues...

I really think that its not worth it but buy and XSata and learn all the stuff for a kid who wants to cheat, yes its not that hard but yet modding each game save is not something accessible to everyone you need to research for each game save if you want do to somethign particular, of course you could get a save to unlock all achivement etc but that's easly detectable.

And for Halo 2 DLC resigners not release, yeah halo 2 did fine because halo 2 had map modding and not only game save modding.

I think that releasing the con resigner is not responsible, but when you see people making money out of it when they didn't even made it, and anyway its not fair to sell it even if you made it, that was a good reason to release it.

Now if you look at Xbox live you pay 60$ a year and now see PC platforms such as Steam with dedicated servers and you don't have to pay, free, no lag, no cheaters...

And when you pay 60$ get lag can't find games quickly boring content or expensive, DLC, XBLA games you really though about where the hell did my 60$ went

So what maybe with this con resigner microsoft XBLA team is really gonna work on something and maybe cook up some intresting things.

Because 60$ x numbers of XBL accounts(millions?) = WTF

To Tural:
One-sided argument is one opinion sorry but i can't have an opinion that please to everyone.
And i do so because if i explained all about my opinion then it would take pages.

Oh and halomods not allowing con resigner or w/e that's fine, forge modding is not the kind of modding we had for halo 1 and 2 i doubt that people will be intrested in this kind of modding forever.

PlasmaGhost · Post by **PlasmaGhost** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:07 pm

What if Halomods makes a web-based resigner that checks the Container to be sure that a forge map is within? Also, I'm pretty sure that if Halomods uses their own KeyVault, the private key couldn't be banned. I'm not very knowledgable with RSA, but it seems like a good plan to me because I'd give it a week or two before all these KeyVaults are banned and nobody will have a resigner.

Post by **grimdoomer** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:08 pm

PlasmaGhost wrote:What if Halomods makes a web-based resigner that checks the Container to be sure that a forge map is within? Also, I'm pretty sure that if Halomods uses their own KeyVault, the private key couldn't be banned. I'm not very knowledgable with RSA, but it seems like a good plan to me.

People could get around it, Yes it can be banned, and No its not a good idea.

Tural · Post by **Tural** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:09 pm

PlasmaGhost wrote:What if Halomods makes a web-based resigner that checks the Container to be sure that a forge map is within? Also, I'm pretty sure that if Halomods uses their own KeyVault, the private key couldn't be banned. I'm not very knowledgable with RSA, but it seems like a good plan to me.

We can't do that. We don't have administration on the site. The only two people who can do that never visit.
The key could be banned. You're not really knowledgeable about what you're talking about.

foxfanatic23I7 · Post by **foxfanatic23I7** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:09 pm

I was too lazy to read the above posts, so I guess that disqualifies my arguments a little.

But honestly, who started Halo 2 modding? Iron Forge. If he hadn't released his resigner (don't quote me on the resigner thingy >_<), wouldn't another person have found a way to sign the maps? Wouldn't Halo 2 eventually been modable? I believe that someone would have found the problem, and been able to resign the maps.

Also, it will just slowly leak through out the halomods community. Only a certain group of people have the resigner now, but they will give it to their friends, who give it to their friends, etc. Eventually everyone will have it.

Also, I hate to say it, but halomods isn't the only modding website. Yes true, it is the main one...but wouldn't that just give an advantage to another website to kind of overthrow halomods. What if they allowed the resigner, so everyone went there? Then halomods would be lower on people because of the release of halo 3 (so halo 2 modding is deceased...almost), and the resigning problem as well.

Honestly, we will have to deal with cheaters in halo 3 either way, if you release it or not. That's what Bungie is for, to regulate the games, and make sure as many games are made fair as possible. Starting the Halo 3 modding revolution is the way to go, more activity here at halomods (since we make the best modding tools and mods

), and just overall fun with creating and learning about this game.

Feel free to argue with me, I don't care, I am just throwing out points that I have thought of. When I read the question, I think no they shouldn't release it, but when I think about it, the right thing to do is to release the tools. I am out of the Halo 3 loop. My xbox is taken away, I don't have any modding resources, and I rarely check the Halo 3 forums section. So, keep that in mind while you read my arguments.

PlasmaGhost · Post by **PlasmaGhost** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:10 pm

People could get around it, Yes it can be banned, and No its not a good idea.

How could they get around it? If it's serverside software that checks the container and resigns it, there's no way I can think of to get around it. How could the private key be banned if the end user wouldn't be able to see it? If the end user cannot see it, how would Microsoft?

Tural · Post by **Tural** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:12 pm

I need someone who can make a resigner to talk to me. I want to make a deal. This someone needs to know exactly how to do it, and needs to be able to do it again. Someone PM me or something. I'll also need help of other people, but I'll talk to them later.

PlasmaGhost wrote:How could the private key be banned if the end user wouldn't be able to see it? If the end user cannot see it, how would Microsoft?

Because it can be determined which key signed the file, seeing as MS would have the keys. In addition, Halomods would have to pull a key out of its ass..

Post by **grimdoomer** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:12 pm

PlasmaGhost wrote:
People could get around it, Yes it can be banned, and No its not a good idea.
How could they get around it? If it's serverside software that checks the container and resigns it, there's no way I can think of to get around it. How could the private key be banned if the end user wouldn't be able to see it? If the end user cannot see it, how would Microsoft?

The public key for that key pair is stored in the CON file. You could simply change the name of the content, make sure that there is only 1 file, and hte same size as halo 3 files. Either way there are ones public so why would someone actually use the one on halomods.

jimmygoon · Post by **jimmygoon** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:14 pm

PlasmaGhost wrote:What if Halomods makes a web-based resigner that checks the Container to be sure that a forge map is within? Also, I'm pretty sure that if Halomods uses their own KeyVault, the private key couldn't be banned. I'm not very knowledgable with RSA, but it seems like a good plan to me because I'd give it a week or two before all these KeyVaults are banned and nobody will have a resigner.

This is my thinking except with a few modifications. First, I don't think that Halomods would go for this idea, maybe they would, maybe not. But this:

You user account has a keypair from your own keyvault or one that a friend shared with you. Someone uploads forge variants into a pool on the site. You find one you like, download it (the server on-the-fly resigns it) and then transfer to your xbox.

Now... if you share the map on the fileshare, Bungie has a way of banning you - based on that keypair that you can now no longer use.

They would get around it by just downloading a resigner and resigning what ever they want. But if the website is more convinient... THEN halomods doesn't have to even host the resigner.exe they can just "partner" with the other site! Two problems - one solution.

And the private key from the keyvault would get banned by Bungie if they see lots of new content cropping up all signing by the same Xbox. Which is exactly how they will ban the keyvaults released with the resigners today.

So, if halomods wants to keep their hands clean they can:
1. Rebuild the resigner to only resign forge map variants
2. Build a community site for doing so (which will help keep content off Bungie's site)

CaptainPoopface · Post by **CaptainPoopface** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:19 pm

I see HaloMods as both the largest collection of intelligent people related to Halo modding, and the most ethical. I would like to see it remain both. Due to its history and stature, it would be impossible to replicate if the site were to be taken down as a result of legitimate concerns from Bungie/MS. Like it or not, I believe this situation has resulted, directly or indirectly, from the research and discussion that has taken place at this site. While this does not make HaloMods at fault, it redoubles our obligation to inhibit irresponsible use at this site.

I think the resigners should be kept off this site, and discussion of them, or any use of them in bad faith, should fall under the category of TDATA modding and other forbidden topics: very little latitude before RC / ban. OK, so the levee is broken and people can get a resigner from any number of places. Let them get it from somewhere other than here. We can still conduct research and discussion about modding but not be party to unethical behavior. While I've certainly noticed the downswing in activity over the past couple of years, I don't think disallowing resigners would be significantly detrimental to HaloMods' longevity or relevance. At any other site I've been to, I've had to wade through a deluge of crap to find the rare insightful post. HaloMods maintains the highest quality-to-crap ratio, and for that reason will remain the 500-lb. gorilla of Halo modding sites. Aside from which, I believe there are bigger strides to be made before modding really becomes interesting, and they are most likely to be made among the members here.

As for the flood of crap mods, that is destined to happen in the beginning phase of public availability, whether modding is legal or not. Let that phase begin, so that it can dwindle sooner. Submissions to the Downloads section could be regulated, for the time being, by a simple system: two moderators must rubber stamp the mod for not being a complete waste of time, or otherwise questionable use of the tools at hand. Yeah, it sucks. More work for staff, and contrary to the spirit of community. But I think it's the boat we're in now.

Keep the resigners off, the unethical users on a short leash, and the discussion and research ongoing.

jimmygoon · Post by **jimmygoon** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:20 pm

CaptainPoopface wrote:Keep the resigners off, the unethical users on a short leash, and the discussion and research ongoing.

So what about discussion of forge map variant modding that would imply resigning... without actually hosting the resigning materials?

CaptainPoopface · Post by **CaptainPoopface** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:26 pm

jimmygoon wrote: So what about discussion of forge map variant modding that would imply resigning... without actually hosting the resigning materials?

Precisely.

SPARTAN-OMEGA · Post by **SPARTAN-OMEGA** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:28 pm

I say allow forge and videos mods (that are related to halo) be aloud and anything else people get punished for posting it. Also I say we dont teach how to edit the CON as it will lead to other games being modded and gamerscore cheated.

jimmygoon · Post by **jimmygoon** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:30 pm

How will people share cool forge variant mods? Bungie's fileshare is off limits. Obviously people will have to resign it themselves but surely we think we should have someway of sharing mods?

sneakyn8 · Post by **sneakyn8** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:47 pm

i think that halomods should just allow usermaps and not resigners/container files

mxrider108 · Post by **mxrider108** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:50 pm

jimmygoon wrote:How will people share cool forge variant mods? Bungie's fileshare is off limits. Obviously people will have to resign it themselves but surely we think we should have someway of sharing mods?

Good point, but Halomods doesn't have to necessarily provide such a means. People could post the usermap file to share and just assume the people who download it will have their own resigner to change IDs...

sneakyn8 wrote:i think that halomods should just allow usermaps and not resigners/container files

A usermap IS a container file.

jimmygoon · Post by **jimmygoon** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:53 pm

mxrider108 wrote:
jimmygoon wrote:How will people share cool forge variant mods? Bungie's fileshare is off limits. Obviously people will have to resign it themselves but surely we think we should have someway of sharing mods?
Good point, but Halomods doesn't have to necessarily provide such a means. People could post the usermap file to share and just assume the people who download it will have their own resigner to change IDs...

sneakyn8 wrote:i think that halomods should just allow usermaps and not resigners/container files
A usermap IS a container file.

why not have a online resigner sponsered by halomods as long as it can be controlled to only resign forge maps?