Presidential Candidates

[theycallmechad]

Abortion and *** rights are prime examples. You try to tell me that neither of these, in a presidential setting, are directly and blatantly related to the candidate's religious views.

I will not speak of homosexual rights, but I can say abortion, in my opinion, has noting to do with religious views. What is "Pro Choice?" It means that a woman has the right to control what happens to her body, right? That's choice? I know you've herd this before, but what about the BABY'S choice? The ONLY TRUE pro choice stance, in my opinion, is suicide (which I do not support for religious reasons). That is the only choice to terminate life not resulting in the death of somebody else.

Consider this:

(see them drive a car here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMzK6iz6uVs)

This is not a Photoshopped picture. These girls share the same body. If people have the right to make decisions pertaining to their own body and health, why can the girl on the left not decide that she wants to live a more healthy life and remove her sister on the right? Isn't it her choice to take care of her own health as she chooses? Or is it the fact that the girl on the right has a voice and an opinion against the matter that prevents her from being removed?

As far as my loaded statement, if you believe abortion shouldn't be preformed in late- term pregnancy, I don't think I should worry about you ever saying that to me. Also, if you look, I never said that people here can't say it, I said that they should try saying it to me face-to-face, which I know won't happen (hence the reason I included that phrase). This is the internet. People can say anything they wish here. It doesn't bother me that you, Tural, or anybody else here supports abortion. I feel as strongly against it as many of you feel for it. I said what I said merely to show people the love I feel for my unborn daughter. To terminate that life, even in an earlier trimester, would have been a total tragedy to me and my wife.

And for the Huckabee campaign: I like the guy. I think he would do a great job. He is very much in line with what I believe should be done with the country. Keep in mind, though, that I'm a small-country, Mormon boy from Idaho. Life in general is quite conservative here. That's just the way it is.

One final thing: I support abortion in cases of rape, incest (which is usually accompanied by rape), and when continuing the pregnancy will likely result in the death of the mother.

[Tural]

One final thing: I support abortion in cases of rape, incest (which is usually accompanied by rape), and when continuing the pregnancy will likely result in the death of the mother.

Then we are on essentially the same page.

[shadowkhas]

I have to say that I'm also rare to be in the middle of the abortion issue (here in Utah). A LOT of people I talk to say that they never support abortion.
That's one issue I don't fully support Kucinich on...but even still, he has a good idea: Make it pro-choice, but educate people and try to lower the overall amount of abortions done. I don't think that just because abortions will be legalized means that everyone who is pregnant will get an abortion, like some people here seem to exaggerate.

I'll post more when I get back home, my multimedia class is just finishing up.

[Evan]

Tural's last post on the second page pretty much took the words out of my mouth. As for theycallmechad, I believe certain candidates try to take a little too much religion into the state. So much as going over the bounds where it says in the constitution, church and state should be completely separate. As for abortion I think it should all be up to the mother herself.

[GametagAeonFlux]

One final thing: I support abortion in cases of rape, incest (which is usually accompanied by rape), and when continuing the pregnancy will likely result in the death of the mother.

Then we are on essentially the same page.

That's pretty much my view. If you were just screwing around with some girl and she got pregnant, tough shit. You don't deserve to kill the baby when you damn well knew what the risks involved were. Grow the fuck up and take the consequences for your actions like a man.

[Cuda]

The only thing I fear if Obama does in fact become president, is, (and we had a long debate over this in Class today, with a mixed setting, almost equal mix of ethnicities, and different educational levels) is that IF Obama becomes president, that some people would not be able to handle Obama being president. People can say "Oh you're being Racist, blah, blah blah," But it's the truth. The Majority of the class I was in, (Roughly 38-40 people, give or take a few) Think that America is not ready to handle a black president. They felt that if he did become president, some nutcase would either assassinate or make an attempt at his life, based on the color of his skin. It seems primitive to think like so, but it is the awful truth. People think like this, and certain people out of this group may think that such drastic measures may be appropriate.

[shadowkhas]

I have to say that I'm also rare to be in the middle of the abortion issue (here in Utah). A LOT of people I talk to say that they never support abortion.
That's one issue I don't fully support Kucinich on...but even still, he has a good idea: Make it pro-choice, but educate people and try to lower the overall amount of abortions done. I don't think that just because abortions will be legalized means that everyone who is pregnant will get an abortion, like some people here seem to exaggerate.

I'll post more when I get back home, my multimedia class is just finishing up.

Alrighty. I'll just add a bit of my ideas on immigration and other stuff.
Immigration is a big fuck all mess. Yes, you can say "build a fence" and think it's all good. But you have to tackle the root causes of WHY people are getting in illegally. You have to make the immigration process fast and efficient, and have temporary work programs that are good, and then you can build a fence. People trying to get in will see that the legal way works, and then it won't be much of a problem. The biggest thing that makes me mad is when people talk complete crap. They say it's to prevent us from terrorism, and then they only talk about putting up a fence along Mexico...why not Canada as well? If a terrorist can devise a plan to blow shit up, why can't they think to themselves that the Canadian border is unprotected, and use that?

Another thing is health care...a lot of people say that it ruins businesses and it's un-American (once again, talking about people that I talk to personally), but they never come up with a decent answer when I ask them if the well-off letting themselves be taxed for the good of the country is American. I think it's very much in the good ideals of this nation (or what's left of them) to help those below you. And when you really look at it, the people who are on the border line of having a company-provided health insurance be profitable and having it take out their money probably won't be paying more than they are now, and it's much less of a bureaucratic mess. Yes, yes, I know, people will call me out and say that Michael Moore is a horrible person, but really. Go watch Sicko. For God's sakes, America. If you want to be a fantastic country, make yourselves provide for your own people better than Cuba. It makes me ashamed to hear a bunch of crap being slapped down on them, and then seeing what they've got, even. To solve the major companies going out of business bit, why not put them to use? Make them under a government watching organization to make sure there's no theft from the people's taxes, and let the big corporations be the administrators of a government-run health care system. I can't go into details of it, because frankly, I'm not a health care official, nor am I a business man. But the people who are those things can most surely figure out a way to make it work best for the people.


Last item of business. What makes me mad is people calling Hillary Clinton the S word. A SOCIALIST!!!1! Honestly. Wow, so she has some Socialistic ideas in her platform, why is that completely horrible? I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find Fascist ideas in our current government.

So yeah, now I'm in a proper riled up mood. Go Kucinich!

[noxiousraccoon]

You have to make the immigration process fast and efficient, and have temporary work programs that are good, and then you can build a fence.

Why does immigration have to be fast and efficient? Just because they can come here legally doesnt mean we are obligated to let them in. The building of the wall isn't the issue at hand. The problem is the large amount of illegal aliens, their parasitic nature on the American taxpayers, the illegal criminals, and the illegal aliens that have children who are American citizens.

Another thing is health care...a lot of people say that it ruins businesses and it's un-American

Socialism doesnt work. The Robin Hoods that you sound like you support, will do nothing but bring even more problems to this nation. Just look at the toll of Social Security and Welfare. Do you want more money taken from you than the already 35% taken out of your paychecks every year? If the government didnt take out for Social Security and other B.S, I could have almost $3000 dollars in my hands. That money could be put toward college, the higher education that these "Robin Hoods" want to increase the role of the federal government even more just to help those who cant pay for it. But the government cant take money from those who dont have it, so where do they get it from? That's right, those with money. So stealing from those who have the money and giving it to poor, is that not un-American? Free Market System, the right to work, the right to excel in life, the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, is all down the toilet when these socialist democrats take whatever chance of you have of making the life you want and throwing it in your face, all because it is for the good of the nation? The benefits of socialist programs, far exceeds the costs to provide them and the costs to the citizens of this nation in the long run. If the people of this nation trully want to end poverty, high healthcare costs, and the care to help the elderly and sick, then the people of this nation will get off their asses and make a difference. Government intervention will not solve the issue and its a distraction from what our leaders are suppose to be doing. Protecting, Preserving, and Defending the Constitution of the United States. Their is only one candidate who has pledged to do just that. Its not very hard to look, and besides, Rudolph and his big red nose likes to take what he says, rearrange it and use it against him for his own support.

[shadowkhas]

Why does immigration have to be fast and efficient? Just because they can come here legally doesnt mean we are obligated to let them in. The building of the wall isn't the issue at hand. The problem is the large amount of illegal aliens, their parasitic nature on the American taxpayers, the illegal criminals, and the illegal aliens that have children who are American citizens.

You're right, we don't HAVE to let them in. But if the process is more efficient, there are less illegal immigrants that are undocumented and being paid under the table, which is money that could be taxed normally, like every other person, and there's less of a "parasitic nature."

Do you want more money taken from you than the already 35% taken out of your paychecks every year?

I'd wager it's around 23-28% for an average middle class family. I would willingly pay 30-35% taxes, if it is being used to support other people in our country, yes.

That's right, those with money. So stealing from those who have the money and giving it to poor, is that not un-American? Free Market System, the right to work, the right to excel in life, the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, is all down the toilet when these socialist democrats take whatever chance of you have of making the life you want and throwing it in your face, all because it is for the good of the nation?

Hypothetical situation time. If you're making $1 billion, I think that is excelling in life plenty. You won't become suddenly destitute if the government takes out $400 million of that instead of $350 million. Also, laissez-faire economics and a truly good, capitalistic society is a joke. It's about as realistic as Communism, frankly. It works if there is infinite competition, and equal opportunity to enter the market, with newcomers having the same influence as those who have been around the longest. It doesn't work that way in America. Take a look at a company like Tesla Motors. There is no way that they will become as influential as Ford or General Motors.
And why is it so bad to share? Are we not taught as young children that sharing is a good thing? But once we grow older, and it's our precious wealth that can be shared, it's evil and Socialistic? Oh yeah. We don't want THEM to get the money. You know, the POOR people.

The benefits of socialist programs, far exceeds the costs to provide them and the costs to the citizens of this nation in the long run. If the people of this nation trully want to end poverty, high healthcare costs, and the care to help the elderly and sick, then the people of this nation will get off their asses and make a difference. Government intervention will not solve the issue and its a distraction from what our leaders are suppose to be doing.

I agree with you for the most part. But frankly, when the people of this country are so out of it that this country is becoming such a shit hole due to lack of caring, what else can you do? Holding hands and singing Kumbaya won't solve the problem. Heavy government intervention, in the case of supporting those who truly need help, for the betterment of the nation and its overall state of well-being, is one of the only times I support it so strongly as I do now.

Their is only one candidate who has pledged to do just that.

And who would you say that is?

[noxiousraccoon]

and there's less of a "parasitic nature."

The immigration problem however can be stopped. Worker programs are a serious national threat. The parasitic nature that I am referring to is not going to be solved by making sure their are documented workers. The parasitic nature is more than just money, its poverty, crime, education, and then healthcare is the biggest issue. Even if they did pay taxes, their social class surrounding illegals is dangerous to society and government. We need to change the citizenship crudentials and we must control our borders and lastly we must remove all illegal aliens from this country, including their American children. In my opinion, just because they are born in this country, it doesnt justify the fact their parents are illegal. When they made the choice to come to this country, they knew the risks and are going to suffer the punishment. It sounds terrible, but the only way we are going to start off in the right direction is by slapping the cuffs on people and shipping them out. If immigrants want to come to this nation, we must have a process to get them hear legally to where we can keep track of them and deport them if they violate any laws. The whole idea that this country is free and we should welcome anyone who values freedom, is a threat because they need to realize the problems illegal aliens have brought to this nation.

I'd wager it's around 23-28% for an average middle class family. I would willingly pay 30-35% taxes, if it is being used to support other people in our country, yes.

Ok, but should that choice be left up to you? If you want to donate money, I believe that is the most heartfelt thing anyone in this country can do. I dont want social security benefits or medicare, but yet they steal money from me every two weeks. If that choice was left to me, I would donate money to help. However, this country is not based off that, and our government is stealing from everyone and taxing everyone differently. Definition of discrimination - treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit. Or is only discrimination by taxation only a big deal if it involves race?

Hypothetical situation time. If you're making $1 billion, I think that is excelling in life plenty. You won't become suddenly destitute if the government takes out $400 million of that instead of $350 million. Also, laissez-faire economics and a truly good, capitalistic society is a joke. It's about as realistic as Communism, frankly. It works if there is infinite competition, and equal opportunity to enter the market, with newcomers having the same influence as those who have been around the longest. It doesn't work that way in America. Take a look at a company like Tesla Motors. There is no way that they will become as influential as Ford or General Motors.
And why is it so bad to share? Are we not taught as young children that sharing is a good thing? But once we grow older, and it's our precious wealth that can be shared, it's evil and Socialistic? Oh yeah. We don't want THEM to get the money. You know, the POOR people.

Sounds like Tesla Motors isnt making a good product. If you cant make it in this market, your product isnt good enough. Just because you cant make it in a capitalist society, does that mean it automatically falls on the shoulders of everyone else who got off their ass and made it happen? No. Just because you feel our market system is a joke doesnt justify the fact that it gives people the chance to start off and make a life for themselves. If they cant make it in this world, they are not trying hard enough or they are not making the right choices, and its not my problem that they cannot defend for themselves. This is where my biased comes in. Stealing from the people of this nation is wrong. Thats why I believe their should be a government program where money can be loaned out at very low interest rates (extremely low) to help our citizens out. However, they must pay it back over time. Much like student loans except anyone can apply for them. That way people can get help but must pay it back. That is in my opinion the only true way to solve this issue.

I agree with you for the most part. But frankly, when the people of this country are so out of it that this country is becoming such a **** hole due to lack of caring, what else can you do? Holding hands and singing Kumbaya won't solve the problem. Heavy government intervention, in the case of supporting those who truly need help, for the betterment of the nation and its overall state of well-being, is one of the only times I support it so strongly as I do now.

Just because you think its a shithole, doesnt mean it is. This country has potential but sucking government into every aspect of our lives and destroying whatever free will to expand and progress in this market, is in violation of my constititutional rights. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Taking healthcare, food, social security and shuving it down my throat, wont solve my sore throat.

And who would you say that is?

Ron Paul, except he has no chance because this country seems to have forgotten we have a constitution.

If you have a chance and would like to read some thoughts about the dangers of socialism, look at this.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_ ... us_en.html
This was published by Pope John Paul II in 1991. Its very long but it discusses how socialism and communism are dangerous because of the restrictions it puts on people. This is what I am currently studying in college, I have yet to understand the full meaning exactly but I understand the main message.

[gh0570fchurch]

Obama. Not overall my favorite candidate, but most of the ones I'd really like to see elected don't stand a chance, so I'd rather support one that would still make a good president, but I'd 100% take him over Hilary. Any day.

[shadowkhas]

Good points, noxiousraccoon. While I still don't agree with them, I think now we'd start getting more on what we each define as being American and un-American in moral beliefs. Although with that said, I find Ron Paul easily the best Republican candidate there.

[noxiousraccoon]

Good points, noxiousraccoon. While I still don't agree with them, I think now we'd start getting more on what we each define as being American and un-American in moral beliefs. Although with that said, I find Ron Paul easily the best Republican candidate there.

Agreed, though I agree with his opinions about the invasion of Iraq, I do not agree with his idea of withdrawing. That is why I am not voting for him, even though I know he wont win anyway. Thats just another reason why I dont like politics. Our government should be protecting the people of this nation, not fighting eachother for who has the best idea and only doing what is necessary to make sure they are voted back into office. I dont believe Ron Paul has made it clear he would end the corruption, end the division, but I believe in order for this country to start off on the right foot, we have to start following the Constitution. Not just President Bush has neglected the Constitution, he is just the worst one to do it during a time where he could/should have made a difference. None of the candidates today seem to fit the profile that I am looking for, I just believe Ron Paul is the closest to it. Just curious though, did you look at the Pope's address?

[shadowkhas]

Just curious though, did you look at the Pope's address?

Oh, no, haven't gotten around to it. I've got it opened in a tab now, though, I'll read it in small chunks over the next couple of days (it is pretty big).

[[cc]z@nd!]

sound like you've had a good discussion while i was gone.

in other news, however, Kucinich has just dropped out of the race ;_;

http://blog.cleveland.com/plaindealer/2 ... al_bi.html
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/ ... _house.php

with that said and done, i may vote for Ron Paul now based on what i've heard from others, although he has absolutely no chance. that, and I need to find a good website to figure out precisely where each candidate stands on certain issues.

and to contribute some to the conversation, my stance on abortion is that it should be a drastic precaution only used in drastic times, like rape or danger of the mother's death. aside from that, i believe if the mother truly doesn't want the child, they should have an easy way to put it up for adoption, that way she isn't necessarily chained to an unplanned pregnancy, and the child's life is still preserved.

as for illegal immigrants, i have mixed feelings. where i used to live (TN) there was a huge immigrant issue. they were everywhere, and you would always find them building houses due to the rising real estate prices. needless to say, people didn't like them much, but i just don't think it would be right to shun them. after all, it is our duty to accept the world's huddled masses, so we just need to fix the process of becoming a citizen.

summary: i pretty much line up with shadowkhas.

[shadowkhas]

in other news, however, Kucinich has just dropped out of the race ;_;

Yeah...sad. I'm stuck in between Obama and Paul now.

[G.I.R.]

in other news, however, Kucinich has just dropped out of the race ;_;

Yeah...sad. I'm stuck in between Obama and Paul now.

What's funny is I took a little quiz to match me up with a candidate the other day, and Kucinich was my best match; sad to hear he's dropped out though. :\ Not that I can vote anyway...

[noxiousraccoon]

with that said and done, i may vote for Ron Paul now based on what i've heard from others, although he has absolutely no chance. that, and I need to find a good website to figure out precisely where each candidate stands on certain issues.

and to contribute some to the conversation, my stance on abortion is that it should be a drastic precaution only used in drastic times, like rape or danger of the mother's death. aside from that, i believe if the mother truly doesn't want the child, they should have an easy way to put it up for adoption, that way she isn't necessarily chained to an unplanned pregnancy, and the child's life is still preserved.

as for illegal immigrants, i have mixed feelings. where i used to live (TN) there was a huge immigrant issue. they were everywhere, and you would always find them building houses due to the rising real estate prices. needless to say, people didn't like them much, but i just don't think it would be right to shun them. after all, it is our duty to accept the world's huddled masses, so we just need to fix the process of becoming a citizen.

Their individual sites have their information. Google is pretty useful.

Abortion should always be legal. A system where a mother can give her baby up for adoption sounds good, however, have you thought of the countless children who do not even have homes now? We have all seen t-shirts that say, Abortion - Leading Cause of Death in America 1,000,000 deaths a year, what about those 1,000,000 who will need homes? Or just think, the problem the baby boomers are already putting their weight on Social Security, just to think how big that weight would be now if their wasnt abortion. Not to mention when abortion was illegal, the backyard babies, and illegal abortions taking place were a great stress on society. Although I believe that mothers and fathers should reconsider abortion, I personally do not want to see children stuck in terrible conditions to where they rely on the welfare system and to hopefully find a new home. In addition, this country already feels obligated to adopt babies from other countries, what do we do now with the 1,000,000 babies without homes? I would rather allow abortions, then to see the countless lives of children grow up in the "system", without the possibility of trully being brought up in a loving home. This country, by statistics ofcourse, appears to be getting dumber, so yes, lets impose a system where more children wont get an education. No child left behind?
On immigration, dude, why do you believe its our duty to accept the huddled masses? This country wasnt founded to be the fallback/running to country when they are in poverty or in hard times. Freedom doesnt mean the freedom to walk in and out whenever you want. That is exactly the problem this country is facing, its not our duty to do anything except defend our constitution of the united states, and pursue happiness for the nation and for ourselves. If immigrants want to come to this nation, they can wait in line.

[Ombre]

Shouldn't it be the child's choice on whether or not he or she wants to live that life? If I said to you right now if you had a choice between living in those terrible conditions and dieing would you choose death? If they want to choose to end their lives then let them make that decision.

[shadowkhas]

On immigration, dude, why do you believe its our duty to accept the huddled masses? This country wasnt founded to be the fallback/running to country when they are in poverty or in hard times. Freedom doesnt mean the freedom to walk in and out whenever you want. That is exactly the problem this country is facing, its not our duty to do anything except defend our constitution of the united states, and pursue happiness for the nation and for ourselves. If immigrants want to come to this nation, they can wait in line.

Like I said, I'm halfway on the issue. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." We should be a country where dreams can be fulfilled, where we can give opportunities for people to make a better life. But there has to be something done about illegal immigration. I honestly believe that if we overhaul our immigration system, there will be a better climate towards immigrants.