politics debate/discussion thread.

[stephen10101]

And not a single one of you has the right to complain about 'gas' prices.

That is true, I went to Germany this summer and the gas prices were A LOT higher than here, and I know they are around that price or worse all over Europe.

[Geo]

Last time I visited the U.S. your fuel prices were around half of that found here. Hence why we don't all drive huge monstrocities, that and the fact we care about the planet slightly more ;p

[shadowkhas]

The argument many dems bring to the table time and time again, "He wasn't Elected by popular vote" has somewhat diminished by the fact that where they had their chance to get rid of him

When did that chance happen?

They could've elected Kerry, and not have to deal with 4 more years of Bush.

But most of all America isn't Democrats...
You'll hear from Democrats more speaking out, but that's how it always is. The other side will always use tactics that they scream at the other side for using.

[Cuda]

Amerika polotics r bad.

Have Blair get our balls off his chin, then critisize our politics.

[Dan!!]

Was it oil? Possibly. Most people try to say "it can't be oil because look at how much gas costs," but that's the point. We shouldn't have this much of an increase in gas prices. It's no coincidence that Exxon's posted record profits in the past couple of years.

Im just quoting you, not saying anything against you.
Our government would not wage war over oil, considering our government doesnt have the power to steal oil.

We can just take over Iraq, institute a government we like, and then that government will hand the fields over to Halliburton. It's not stealing at all!

"it cant be oil because look at gas costs" is the mind of an 8th grader. Just because oil companies have more of it, doesnt mean that prices will go down.

Especially when it goes up, the demand stays the same, so they make tons of money. After that they're just looking for reasons to raise the price.

This war has been and always will be split between two issues. The more publicly destroyed one or the what all americans can succumb too. Public: WMDs

Just no. There's none.

Other One: Helping Iraqi people by removing Saddam (considering the name of this war is Operation Iraqi Freedom)

As bad as Saddam was, he's really the Tito of Iraq. These groups sure as hell weren't acting up under Saddam, he wouldn't have any of that.

Has this war turned civil? No, the three major ethnic groups having been battling for supremecy for years. I have been saying this since the war started.

So, it's not a civil war because it's been going on for a while? At this point it's basically Insurgents vs. US. I agree it's not a civil war really. There's just large amounts of sectarian violence that really goes in and out and it's interfering with the main conflict. The issue to me is it escalating into civil war, or if the insurgency is ever minimized to an acceptable point, that the ethnic strife would prevent any state from ever being established. Break Iraq into 3 and then split Baghdad itself Berlin-style.

Do not believe the press, do not believe Army recuiters, talk to the people who have been there and know what is going on.

They aren't really culture-experts. Their view is as biased as any.

In addition, pulling out of Iraq as the president as stated, "would be a disaster" and by all means that would be true.

So if pulling out of Iraq would be a disaster should we never leave? I personally don't think that people there will stop hating us, and I think more people will start hating us if we stay.

I personally dont believe we should have left Vietnam, losing is shameful despite the circumstances.

If the American people don't want their country involved in any military conflict any more, it should end. It's not like we would've accomplished anything worthwhile had we stayed in Vietnam. More soldiers die, more come back totally fucked up, and we'd get a horribly unstable Vietnam that would be nothing but an airstrip to the US military. Frankly, no one cared about Vietnam or its people.

the congress (generally) wants what the people want

Or lobbyists. Also, people are stupid.

This thread will spiral out of control very quickly. I'd like to see you (Collective, not singular) prove me wrong.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. I'd appreciate it if you don't do any moderating on the topic if that's how you feel and leave it to another mod.

Also, Democrats don't win presidential elections because they have the worst campaign managers in the world.

[shadowkhas]

big post is biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig

I love you.

[fishface617]

And not a single one of you has the right to complain about 'gas' prices.

Yea, if I remember correctly it was 3-4 Euro (~5 USD now...) for a liter of gas in Italy. For those of you who dont know a liter is about a quarter of a gallon.

Or it could have been about 1 euro a liter making it about 5 dollars a gallon. I cant remember now...

[noxiousraccoon]

His entire post

I didnt have much time to elaborate on my position because storms were coming and I had to shut down my computer. My post was very very vague and did not completely explain my point. I would take up pages of time writing my point. Im just going to make bullet points though instead.

"We can just take over Iraq..."
We arent setting up a government we like (its not up to us) and Iraq would never just hand over their fields.

"Just no. There's none."
That was my point, this war was always split for WMDs (which ofcourse we know is not true) and helping the Iraqi people. America isnt a imperalistic country and doesnt want control of Iraq. When no WMDs were found, people and press alike lost faith in the war and dont want to help the Iraqi people.

"As bad as saddam was..."
Im lost on what your post means.

"So, its not a civil war..."
The ethnic groups fighting is not a civil war and only major violence in Iraq now is between gangs fighting for "territory".

"Break Iraq..."
Who has the power to 'break' Iraq exactly?

"They arent really culture..."
Everyone is biased, but those who present reports on Iraq to Congress have published articles and books on the issue. Worth reading.

"So if pulling out of Iraq..."
Personally, I believe we should stay until the Iraqi Army/police/task forces are big enough and trained enough to handle their own borders.

"if the American people dont..."
I understand why we left Vietnam and I understand why the American people wanted to leave. Despite if we wouldve accomplished anything or not, its stupid to go to war and lose hundreds of men just to tuck your tail between your legs and walk away. Its like walking into a restaurant, buying alot food, not eating then leave and leave a good tip.

I am glad though this topic hasnt turned into f-n bush, f this f that, lets keep it this way.

[destroyer69]

God I hate political discussions. I'm with Tural on this one, not even going to get involved.

[Dan!!]

We arent setting up a government we like (its not up to us)

But Americans can threaten troop withdrawal if a candidate we don't like is elected, and we can write our own bills to put into their congress. We sure as hell have a big hand in it.

and Iraq would never just hand over their fields.

Maybe not, but they'll hand over everything else. Oil transportation, security, etc has all been replaced with foreign companies (Halliburton, Carlyle, etc) who are making a killing off of it.

"Just no. There's none."
That was my point, this war was always split for WMDs (which ofcourse we know is not true) and helping the Iraqi people. America isnt a imperalistic country and doesnt want control of Iraq. When no WMDs were found, people and press alike lost faith in the war and dont want to help the Iraqi people.

We never wanted to help them anyway. Saddam with a nuke was enough to scare us into Iraq, but the job of stabilizing Iraq might not keep us there.

"As bad as saddam was..."
Im lost on what your post means.

Saddam may have been an evil dictator, but Shi'ites and Sunnis weren't killing each other on the street. Saddam may have been evil, but Iraq was stable.

"So, its not a civil war..."
The ethnic groups fighting is not a civil war and only major violence in Iraq now is between gangs fighting for "territory".

Ethnic groups fighting and territory squabbles can easily escalate into civil war. Two ethnic groups with different principles fighting for political power in the new government (or just totally wipe out the other) is pretty civil war-like to me.

"Break Iraq..."
Who has the power to 'break' Iraq exactly?

The UN loves to do stuff like that. I wasn't being serious with that statement anyway.

"They arent really culture..."
Everyone is biased, but those who present reports on Iraq to Congress have published articles and books on the issue. Worth reading.

The Press also write articles and publish books. Having a publisher doesn't make you less biased. Nor does reporting to Congress. I think the best people to ask about the situation Iraq are Iraqis.

"So if pulling out of Iraq..."
Personally, I believe we should stay until the Iraqi Army/police/task forces are big enough and trained enough to handle their own borders.

Personally, I couldn't care less about Iraq and I think a lot of people agree with me. I believe the US military is part of the US government, and I think if the US people don't want the US, their country, in a war, then their military should end that war. It defeats the whole purpose of elections if our government doesn't do what we want them to. The whole concept of the our representatives being public servants seems to have disappeared.

its stupid to go to war and lose hundreds of men just to tuck your tail between your legs and walk away.

I think it's stupider to stay in a meaningless war and lose more troops for the sake of "winning" when you'll accomplish nothing.

God I hate political discussions. I'm with Tural on this one, not even going to get involved.

The logical thing to do would be to not post in that thread at all. Should we make a thread to complain about this thread?

[noxiousraccoon]

But Americans can threaten troop withdrawal...

Thats not likely. The whole point of this is to guide the people into creating a government that works for them, by the people, although we may have the power to write legislation for them, our government surely is not.

Maybe not, but they'll hand over everything else...

I understand America's and the worlds frustration with that matter, but thats just business, and if the Iraqis are willing to hand it over, then who can blame American companies for saying yes?

We never wanted to help them anyways...

Thats the hyprocisy of American politics. We will send troops to Somalia to fight against genocide but cant stant together to help a country gain the rights that they deserve. Very aggravating.

Saddam may have been a...

Hard to say it was stable but I do agree with your point. However, Iraq has had a past of various issues that can hardly make it stable. Gulf War, Kurdish Uprising, Iraq Iran War, massive killings of innocent civilians, biological attacks, and missiles fired in Israel. It has been a rough 20 years or so in Iraq, which is why I personally believe our goal in Iraq from the get go should have been for the Iraqi people.

Ethnic groups and territory squabbles...

Civil war is still so far away though. These little skirmishes are because of a smaller less organized resistance to the US and "very very dedicated" individuals who wish to kill others because of culture and religion. The entire population of Iraq has not split into 2 or 3 groups and are not fighting eachother.

The UN loves to do...

Gotcha. I feel [s] for sarcasm shall be placed after a sarcastic/joking statement from now on aight?

The press also writes...

I agree with you 100%, but its hard to believe the press sometimes you know? Mainly because their stories are usually for ratings and sales.

Personally, I couldnt care less...

We should still encourage others to stand up for what they believe in and stay determined to make their lives better. I do agree with you, the people have lost representation merely because of the size of the United States and the turn out of voters. Saying, "I couldnt care less about Iraq" is kinda frustrating because although Iraq may not have or maybe will never affect you in your lifetime, they are still human beings and we should respect them and join together to solve this issue.

I think its stupider to...

War has never accomplished anything (except the destruction of empires) but the problem with Vietnam was the fact that we will never know what we could have gained. Americans lost faith when the going got tough and that is a disgrace to everything that our founding fathers and soldiers have ever died fighting for. Iraq I believe is quite possibly the same way. If we could end the violence, set up a "stable" Iraq, and make peace with the Iraq people, we have gained much more than a allie.

[Dan!!]

But Americans can threaten troop withdrawal...

Thats not likely.

The US ambassador to the UN has threatened troop withdrawal twice because the US disapproved of two candidates for Defense and Interior Ministries.

Maybe not, but they'll hand over everything else...

I understand America's and the worlds frustration with that matter, but thats just business, and if the Iraqis are willing to hand it over, then who can blame American companies for saying yes?

The bill that organized the whole thing was written by Americans, and sent into Congress through Iraq's independent party. We're getting a 2 year old to steal a candy bar from CVS for us.

We never wanted to help them anyways...

Thats the hyprocisy of American politics. We will send troops to Somalia to fight against genocide but cant stant together to help a country gain the rights that they deserve. Very aggravating.

It's not something we're proud of but I'm feeling realist today. People don't care. I'd say I'd be much happier in Darfur stopping that then in Iraq though.

Saddam may have been a...

Hard to say it was stable but I do agree with your point. However, Iraq has had a past of various issues that can hardly make it stable. Gulf War

Hell, you have to be pretty stable to start a war with a different country.

Kurdish Uprising

Squashed.

Iraq Iran War

With the US's help, Iraq won. Nice job, Reagan!

massive killings of innocent civilians

The war itself has already passed the maximum number of people killed by Saddam Hussein.

Ethnic groups and territory squabbles...

Civil war is still so far away though. These little skirmishes are because of a smaller less organized resistance to the US and "very very dedicated" individuals who wish to kill others because of culture and religion. The entire population of Iraq has not split into 2 or 3 groups and are not fighting eachother.

Good point.

The press also writes...

I agree with you 100%, but its hard to believe the press sometimes you know? Mainly because their stories are usually for ratings and sales.

True, true.

Personally, I couldnt care less...

We should still encourage others to stand up for what they believe in and stay determined to make their lives better. I do agree with you, the people have lost representation merely because of the size of the United States and the turn out of voters. Saying, "I couldnt care less about Iraq" is kinda frustrating because although Iraq may not have or maybe will never affect you in your lifetime, they are still human beings and we should respect them and join together to solve this issue.

I agree, that's the way it should be. But America is a country of heartless bastards.

I think its stupider to...

War has never accomplished anything (except the destruction of empires) but the problem with Vietnam was the fact that we will never know what we could have gained. Americans lost faith when the going got tough and that is a disgrace to everything that our founding fathers and soldiers have ever died fighting for. Iraq I believe is quite possibly the same way. If we could end the violence, set up a "stable" Iraq, and make peace with the Iraq people, we have gained much more than a allie.

Installing our freedoms and ideals in another country should not be placed above the people of that country's lives and especially not our country's men. As for the whole "disgrace to everything our soldiers have died for", I think it's disgraceful that they're dying in the first place. There's a good 4000 people who would still be alive had we not gone to war. If Iraqis wanted their freedom they should have taken it themselves or moved. Not to mention the whole invasion thing. I don't remember France occupying the US while they wrote the constitution.

[Geo]

Too. Many. Quotes.

[noxiousraccoon]

The UN Ambassador has no power to withdraw troops, so his threats mean nothing.
In addition, the basis of democracy has to start somewhere and were setting the foundation of their government, totally plausible.
You say you would rather be in Darfur. But does that mean we would have to be their with a military force? What happens then when the US is in another country with a military presence? Do you remember what happened the last country we tried to help fight genocide?
Also, my points of past issues merely represents the fact that Iraq has not been stable. "hell, you have to be..." I wasnt talking about their invasion of Kuwait, I meant the affects after we interviened. I know more civilians have died in this war but my point was that they were assassinated, we dont off civilians in record numbers on purpose.
I agree with you, not going to war was in my opinion was the best option, but undoubtly its no longer a choice that can be made and quitting because its getting tough is not an option. (in my opinion)
"...France occupying the US while they wrote the constitution."
?

[Dan!!]

The UN Ambassador has no power to withdraw troops, so his threats mean nothing.

He's a representative of the US, he wouldn't, the president would, and the president appointed him. It's implausible, but he did it anyway.

You say you would rather be in Darfur. But does that mean we would have to be their with a military force?

I was just saying that ideally, I'd rather be in a country where genocide is happening and we could stop it, instead of Iraq. It'd be better if we were in neither.

we dont off civilians in record numbers on purpose.

Good intentions don't count for anything.

"...France occupying the US while they wrote the constitution."?

Iraq needs to pull its own weight.

[noxiousraccoon]

Iraq needs to pull its own weight.

Haha, we will all be dead before that happens.

[sneakyn8]

I don't see what else I need to tell people, because no matter how much I tell them that this was OFFICIAL, nobody ever believes it.

hey has anyone ever seen the episode of souh park with manbearpig?

[Alexander]

Delete this post for epic win

[Alexander]

Iraq needs to pull its own weight.

Haha, we will all be dead before that happens.

Yeah, because the iraqis flinging around rocks will hop on their magic carpets and come to American soil, right....?

[noxiousraccoon]

Yeah, because the iraqis flinging around rocks will hop on their magic carpets and come to American soil, right....?

I forgot the [s] and [/s] on my post for sarcasm, forgive me.