North Korea...

[JK-47]

Yeah, But the Japanese weren't beaten down by Allies and Humiliated on the global stage. They in some parts, had some say in what went into their constitution. Un like post WW1 Germany, where France and Great Birtain decieded everything, and Japan now doesn't need a militiary. Instead of Focusing funds and tax dollars to Military growth, it was used to further development and Modernization.

Good point.

[rossmum]

And look how advanced they are now. If only other countries would pick up on that...

[noxiousraccoon]

And I fail to see how I missed the point, your point was that they'd be backed by Russia and China so how could we consider them allies. I made the point that the US has also backed countries they probably shouldn't have, so you can't single out Russia as an example.

Dude, my point was that if we went to war no countries around NK would support us. China and Russia would not be our allies. I signaled out Russia because Russia would be a huge ally. They are right next to NK.

Yeah well, to be taken seriously, you probably shouldn't be saying 'I know what you know times 10!' You sound like a four year old, times infinity plus one!

I was saying that because I knew everything he just said, and I know it quite well. I know our issues with the middle east very well. I never said that I know more than him, I just said I know alot.

Japan's Army was disbanded after world War II almost right after the war ended so they dont fight the Americans there for Bombing the hell out of them During rebuilding. American troops there still had animosity with the Japanese for Pearl Harbor, and Japanese had the same issue with the Americans fro Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Right after the war Japan was nearly destroyed economically, socially, etc. What country did Japan attack just west of them during WWII? China. Why did we fear that Japan would become communist? Because at the time we feared China retaliating to the Japanese and taking it over. "The Rape of Nanking"/The Nanking Massacre. If you ever heard of this battle(well it wasnt considered a battle in my opinon, but basically the entire Japanese conquest of China during WWII was a slaughter), then you know what the Chinese were fighting for. The Japanese was basically trying to annialite China. China would have gotten their revenge except we stepped in. We scared China with nukes hitting Japan, and then we dispanded their army. The nukes were to scare (though, not necessarily scare but more to impress) Russia and China, and make Japan surrender due to our heavy losses in the Pacific. Also, we needed to dispand Japan's army because we realized that they could become a very, very powerful country. Into which, they could attack us again in the future. It was for our survival.

[Danke]

China will never support us against NK because they fear an american presence in Asia...So military action in NK would never be an option because China will support the NK

This isn't the Cold War though, China might fear an American presence, but they aren't going to support NK because of it. Considering the changes in their country, their role in the nation community, and Kim Jong-Il's reputation, they probably wouldn't fight against NK, but they sure as hell wouldn't help him. NK's economy has essentially nothing for China. All they can do is build up military and sell weapons. China has essentially no dependence on them. I think China's course of action here is that they'll just sit there and make sure no North Koreans flee into China. They'll just secure themselves and have nothing to do with either of us, which will probably work out better for them as having anything to do with either NK or the US will make problems for them.

Russia, they aren't going to do anything. They share a tiny border with them, and they could probably care less.

There's also the problem of what would happen if we were to oust Jong-Il. We're not really good with appointing new governments, and the prospect of uniting Korea is a horrible idea with the huge economical gap there.

[noxiousraccoon]

This isn't the Cold War though, China might fear an American presence, but they aren't going to support NK because of it. Considering the changes in their country, their role in the nation community, and Kim Jong-Il's reputation, they probably wouldn't fight against NK, but they sure as hell wouldn't help him. NK's economy has essentially nothing for China. All they can do is build up military and sell weapons. China has essentially no dependence on them.

Cold War or not, China acted the same way they did before the first Korean war. They stayed out of it until, what we thought were the closing days of the war, they sent 500,000 troops to fight us. China today wants peace talks because they know we could militarily take them over (meaning we can take over NK) and they fear that despite whether not China is dependent on NK or not. China doesnt even like Americas connection with South Korea.

Russia, they aren't going to do anything. They share a tiny border with them, and they could probably care less.

Thats been my point this whole time. We wouldnt get any help from the countries that we would need the most in a military assault. We cant even get Russia to back us against Iran.

Also, I heard today that Japan is considering attacking NK/gathering an army to defend themselves. They are trying to work around their constitution or w/e it is. Ouch.

[Darco]

maybe they would need the US's permission to raise an army for such purposes? thats funny, its like going to your neighbor and asking if its ok if you throw eggs at the other neighbor's house whom neither of you get a long with.

[The_Hushed_Casket]

maybe they would need the US's permission to raise an army for such purposes?

Their constitution states that they cannot create an army capable of waging war. They can defend themselves, but their preemptive strike idea is going to be tough to justify.

[Cuda]

Dude, my point was that if we went to war no countries around NK would support us. China and Russia would not be our allies. I signaled out Russia because Russia would be a huge ally. They are right next to NK.

Amazing. I can't believe the person furthering this discussion could be more wrong. Russia Is an ALLY now. Meaning We will not go to war. Just because They share a border doesn't mean that they will form an Alliance against us. Western Europe for example. France and Germany have a large border. They have constantly been fighting for hundreds of years, dating back to the middle ages. If Norht Korea REALLY wants to start stuff with us, we, for sure, will end it. China's PLA is the largest Army in the world with a force of 3 Million Strong. The U.S. (if it meant Pulling all personnel from Iraq, and not to mention Installations across the globe,) could only amass about 1.5 milllion troops, Not to mention our allies. Might be few, but conbined can push the figures to and possibly beyond 2 Million conbined with U.S. Figures) A war like that can be the worst decision ever made. But it is unlikely China would get involved in a situation like this, and hopefully The PRC have the sense not to mess with the U.S.

[noxiousraccoon]

Cuda, im skepticle on your position. I have been saying the countries around NK which we need the most (if we went to war/military) would not support us. I made a mistake by saying they would unite against. I meant mainly they would show support against the US, then they would helping us. You say Russia is our ally, I would like to hear more on this.
Im mixed with Russia because they have at one time (after 9/11) worked with us but then read these articles. One says Russia is our ally, the next says they are kicking out the US Peace Corp. Those articles are a few years old but times havent changed much.

http://www.brook.edu/views/op-ed/daalder/20010227.htm
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/003735.html
http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/me ... 11240.html
But then I hear stuff like this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13805550/site/newsweek/

I really dont believe Russia is our ally.

[rossmum]

And I really don't believe Russia or China will at any stage in the near future fight the US, or support NK if they do. China and Russia don't like North Korea very much at all right now, they may be providing equipment but it's only for their own financial benefit. North Korea is supplied with old, obsolete equipment dating back to the 50s. The only "modern" (and I use that term VERY LOOSELY) equipment they have is the AK-47 and maybe a COUPLE of planes and tanks. Now, you say, the AK is 59 and a half years old, how is that modern? Like I said, I used the term loosely. The AK is still in production, still in service, and is still being widely used by everyone ranging from spec ops forces to civilian shooters worldwide. Same with the T-72. It's old, but it's still in use and parts are still available. But as a whole, the North Korean army is VERY poorly equipped and probably not trained too well, the only advantage they'd have is in numbers. Even then a smaller but better equipped and trained army could defeat them.

China and Russia are basically fed up with North Korea's pleas for attention and attitude in general, the same way they don't like Vietnam a whole lot. China for the moment has no particular reason to go against the US and Russia sure as hell doesn't either, I can't see them supporting any military action by North Korea. It'd be like the US offering military aid to Cuba to take over Mexico, they just wouldn't.

[Danke]

In the Korean War, China sent 270,000 PVA troops in after they repeatedly told the US not to cross the 38th. We did, and they still waited until after the UN took Pyongyang and then came in for the reason that they feared the US would invade China, which at the time and considering MacArthur, isn't that farfetched.

Nowadays, war with China is just ridiculous. It wouldn't be tolerated or justifiable to the public, and the US just can't afford it. China has no reason to ally with North Korea, even if they did in the past.

[noxiousraccoon]

In the Korean War, China sent 270,000 PVA troops in after they repeatedly told the US not to cross the 38th. We did, and they still waited until after the UN took Pyongyang and then came in for the reason that they feared the US would invade China, which at the time and considering MacArthur, isn't that farfetched.

China sent more troops before the war was over because they lost so many troops during the winter, also keep in mind before the war started the North Korean army also consisted of Chinese soldiers. 500,000 was the best estimate I could give but 400,000 sounds more accurate. Meanwhile, although MacArthur threatened to blow China off the map, China despite MacArthur still didnt want America close to their borders. No difference to today. Now, do I really and trully believe they would attack us if we went to war? No, but I do fear it and its always a possibility.

[The science of Kaboom]

Germany was denied an army after...WW1 was it? Then look what happened.....HITLAR!
Really, I think its rediculous that we still denie them Army rights now, its been how many years since WWII, things have changed since then.

they still have an army a very small one called bundsewehr or something.

[rossmum]

Don't they have a normal army now?

He was talking about Japan there in the second sentence... we denied Germany an army after WWI, not WWII.

[Excal]

Bah... enough Global History... back to NK!

They said they would return to six party talks if the US and Japan dropped economic sanctions (which China was against... their mentality is economic sanctions will only make the problem worse.) Also, NK said they will start to purchase weapons and build up their defenses if the US keeps conducting Military operations around them... they consider it a threat to their national security.

[Danke]

they consider it a threat to their national security.

In all seriousness, it probably is. I'm sure a bunch of naval and air force ships from other countries loitering around our coasts would be considered a threat to our national security.

[The_Hushed_Casket]

they consider it a threat to their national security.

In all seriousness, it probably is. I'm sure a bunch of naval and air force ships from other countries loitering around our coasts would be considered a threat to our national security.

Let alone gigantic fleets performing war-games maneuver's that haven't been practiced since the Vietnam war.